Chris Seeks Clarity On Scope Of Proposed Vaping Legislation
Christopher Chope Conservative, Christchurch
The Minister has talked about the environmental impact of disposable vapes, but what does she think about the environmental impact of the reusable vape devices that are being sold? The Government’s own impact assessment suggests that by the year 2034, there will be a total of 2 billion reusable vape devices being sold. What impact does she think that will have on the environment, and how will that differ from the sale of disposable vapes?
Mary Creagh The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
What we are trying to do with this ban is to get rid of the vapes that are not rechargeable and refillable. The vapes that are both refillable and rechargeable will continue to be sold as a valuable aid to help adults stop smoking. The almost toy-like vapes that we find littered in every street are the real problem, and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman’s constituency is no different from mine in that regard. I will come back to him on that. On predictions about the future, we saw yesterday in the newspapers that a pill has been developed to help smokers quit smoking, so who knows where we will be in five years’ time. We can always guarantee that the future will be different from the past.
Let me conclude by saying that vapes can help adults to quit smoking, but single-use vapes are a waste of our precious national resources. The sheer volume of them that we see on our streets and the widespread harm that they cause must be stopped, so I commend these regulations to the House.
- Later in the debate.
Christopher Chope Conservative, Christchurch
The issue is not just disposable vapes but illegal vapes, of which as many as 120 million may be being sold each year. Should we not concentrate on that? These regulations deal only with legal vapes, but should we not be more concerned about the environmental impact and other health impacts of illegal vapes?
Neil Hudson Conservative, Epping Forest
We need to get rid of all disposable vapes, legal or illegal. In fact, if any child is vaping, that is illegal. They are getting hold of vapes around the law and people are exploiting our young people. We still do not know the long-term consequences of vaping for their physical and mental health, so we just have to get on with getting rid of the single-use disposable vapes.
To be clear, we know that vaping has its part to play in helping adults to quit tobacco smoking, but we owe it to our young people and others to tackle the unacceptable risks of the illicit market and of existing nicotine addiction, and not to create a new generation of addiction.
On the risk of disposable vapes being imported for sale, will the Minister confirm what measures will be put in place to ensure border authorities have the proper powers and scope to ensure that there is no room for the creation of an illegal disposable vape import industry? In addition, as part of that, will additional resources be allocated to our Border Force, so that the legislation will have the teeth it needs to prevent potential illegal imports of vapes? It is deeply important that the proper enforcement measures are in place, as we know how difficult it can sometimes be to enforce such bans.
Christopher Chope Conservative, Christchurch
My hon. Friend keeps using the expression “potential illegal imports”, but massive illegal import is already taking place. The number of illegal imports detected is a minute proportion of the actual number of illegal imports that are coming into the market. Will he concentrate on the current issue relating to illegal imports, instead of describing that issue as a “potential”?
Neil Hudson Conservative, Epping Forest
I am well aware that there are illegal importations and we need to clamp down on them, but once the ban is in place, if single-use disposable vapes are still being imported into the country, then it will be illegal to put them on sale. I am aware of the point that my hon. Friend makes, but we need to crack on and get rid of disposable vapes.
Will the Minister confirm what measures will be put in place to ensure full and proper enforcement of the ban? Will she reassure the House that the Government will monitor, on an ongoing basis, the performance of enforcement measures in preventing the sale and distribution of single-use vapes? In addition, will the Minister reassure the House that the Government will keep a watching brief on unscrupulous people trying to create loopholes in the ban by adapting, in a sham way, disposable vapes to look like reusable, refillable or rechargeable ones?
I welcome the Minister’s comments about the devolved Administrations, but with this England-only legislation, and with similar versions of the regulations likely to be approved in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland in the coming months, will the Government assure the House that discussions are set in place with the devolved Administrations on specific timings, so that we do not inadvertently create the potential for disposable vape tourism in different parts of the United Kingdom?
In closing, as I said in my opening remarks, we will be supporting this measure. While I hope the Minister can provide clarity on the questions I have posed, I thank the Government for bringing forward this Conservative measure.
- Later in the debate.
Christopher Chope Conservative, Christchurch 4:22, 13 November 2024
It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend Dr Johnson, who has brought a lot of knowledge to the debate.
I want to begin by referring to Lloyd Hatton. The last time I was this close to him was early in July, before polling day, when I was standing in a pub garden overlooking Chesil beach with my good friend Richard Drax. I very much enjoyed listening to his tribute to Richard Drax, who was not only a good friend of mine, but a great servant of democracy. He contributed enormously to the successful campaign to leave the European Union, after which he was a diligent member of the European Scrutiny Committee. He was also extremely active on what was his great love: trying to ensure that we maintain strong defences in our country, and he used his military background to great effect in debates.
However, I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that he is lucky to be here. I have every confidence that, had it not been for the previous Government’s intransigence over the Bibby Stockholm, Richard Drax would still have been in this House, so it was with mixed feelings that I listened to what the hon. Gentleman had to say, but I extend a warm welcome to him. I am sure that he and I will do our best to ensure that Dorset continues to improve its provision of good-quality services to all its citizens.
Turning to the subject of the debate, it came as a bit of a disappointment that neither the Minister nor my hon. Friend Dr Hudson referred much to the unintended health consequences of outlawing disposable vapes. There is already a real problem with illegal disposable vapes—it is estimated that probably one third of vapes are illegal. Those are already bad for the environment, but what will the measures do to address that problem? Not very much, I fear. As I said, it is estimated that some 360 million disposable vapes got on to the market in the United Kingdom in 2023. I had a briefing from British American Tobacco, which highlights that 4.5 million illegal vapes were seized at the border by His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs in 2023. The gap between the 4.5 million illegal vapes seized, and the 360 million estimated to be in circulation, highlights the gravity and extent of the problem, particularly when we extrapolate into the future; the number of illegal vapes could be as high as 1 billion by 2030. That is an enormous amount of income for people engaged in black market trade, people smuggling, and other illicit activities.
Dr Caroline Johnson Shadow Minister (Health and Social Care)
Does my hon. Friend accept that it is quite difficult for the consumer to establish which vapes are illegal and which are not? One may have thought that going into a reputable supermarket to buy such a product was a surefire way of ensuring that it was safe, but we have heard examples of major supermarkets selling a well known brand of vapes that had more in them than was legally allowed. If we ban disposable vapes, it will become very clear: all disposable ones will be illegal.
Christopher Chope Conservative, Christchurch
The information I have about the extent of illegal vapes in the marketplace comes from the Government. In their impact assessment for the Tobacco and Vapes Bill, which will be debated in the next fortnight, the Government accept that about 30% of the market is illegal, and that is where I got my figures. My hon. Friend refers to supermarkets. I am not suggesting that there is any illegal activity in supermarkets or among responsible retailers.
Dr Caroline Johnson Shadow Minister (Health and Social Care)
My point was that there have been examples of supermarkets unknowingly selling vapes that did not meet requirements, and it is difficult for a consumer who puts a disposable vape in each hand to identify which is allowed and which is not. As a result of the new regulations, they will be able to tell, because both will not be allowed.
Christopher Chope Conservative, Christchurch
I am not sure that will help much. My hon. Friend refers to the packaging of vapes, but the number of vapes described as refillable or reusable is projected to increase exponentially over the next several years. The question I asked—I did not really get an answer from the Minister—is what the impact will be of all those refillable or reusable vapes on the environment. The same issues to do with what goes into the manufacture of vapes apply to both disposable and reusable vapes. Why would we need to have 2 billion reusable vapes being sold by 2034 if they are not being disposed of? Just because they are described as reusable does not mean that they cannot be disposed of after one use. My hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham made the point that we need to be wary of how the Chinese, who are the leading manufacturers and exporters in this field, may well adapt their products to try to circumvent these regulations. In any event, what they and other manufacturers are producing is a cost on the environment, in the sense that they are using scarce resources.
Let us not be naive: the fact that something is reusable does not mean it is a permanent fixture. For example, in my parents’ day, they used to smoke cigarettes through a filter that they held. Even those filters were not permanent. I remember many occasions on which my parents said that they had to get rid of the filter and replace it with another. Do not let us be naive and think that this enormously large number of reusable vape devices that are projected to be sold in 2034 will not end up in landfill.
Dr Caroline Johnson Shadow Minister (Health and Social Care)
I am interested to know: is my hon. Friend trying to argue that the Government should have gone further and banned all vapes, including those that can be refilled?
Christopher Chope Conservative, Christchurch
I am not suggesting that; I am referring to the impact assessment. The Minister, in responding to my intervention earlier, referred to the statement made yesterday to the effect that a new magic pill will be available on the NHS to enable people to be weaned off smoking and, in particular, the nicotine effects of smoking. When bringing that forward, the Government said that the new pill would be as effective as vaping. They did not suggest it would be more effective, but as effective, thereby recognising the important role that vaping has in promoting public health.
These regulations are being brought forward on the basis of the environmental benefits that will flow from them, but let us be clear that there is little provision for enforcement. Reference has been made to the additional burden on local authorities. Paragraph 183 of the regulatory impact assessment states:
“There will be costs associated with inspection and law enforcement services to support the ban. Trading Standards Authorities (TSAs) would be best placed to enforce the ban, and work will be undertaken with LAs to establish the most effective and efficient way of enforcement.”
The impact assessment goes on to calculate that the enforcement costs will be low, because the assumption is
“as per Better Regulation guidance to assume 100% compliance by businesses.”
If we make that assumption—in my submission, it is a false one—it can lead to the acceptance of figures from the Government that no additional costs will arise from enforcing these new regulations. I think that is a load of nonsense.
Max Wilkinson Liberal Democrat Spokesperson (Culture, Media and Sport)
The hon. Gentleman is making a number of interesting points, but it is not yet clear to me whether he is in favour of the banning of single-use vapes, or the banning of all vapes, or not. It would be instructive if we all understood a little more of what he is trying to get at in the points he is making, as interesting as they all are.
Christopher Chope Conservative, Christchurch
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for listening to the points that I have been making. They can be summed up as: smoking costs lives; vaping saves lives. Therefore, if we can encourage more people to vape rather than smoke, that is to the benefit of public health and the individuals affected, as well as assisting those who suffer as a result of secondary smoking or passive smoking. The consequence, which is accepted by the Government in their impact assessment, is that by taking these measures against single-use vapes, quite a lot of people who currently use them will go back to smoking.
Vapes have a 65% success rate in enabling people to quit smoking. The chief executive of Action on Smoking and Health said that “scare stories” about young people vaping could be causing the misconception among adult smokers that vaping is at least as risky as smoking. We know that it is not. Compliant vapes do not contain tobacco and do not produce smoke, and vape aerosols do not contain the harmful chemicals found in tobacco smoke. Why are the Government therefore proposing to introduce regulations, which, on their own figures, will result in about 26% of people going from vaping back to tobacco products?
Dr Caroline Johnson Shadow Minister (Health and Social Care)
My hon. Friend is referring to an important issue. I know that he is concerned about personal responsibility and people’s ability to make their own choices. The Government face something of a choice between the protection of an adult—a former smoker who is now vaping, who will be presented with a choice of going back to smoking, stopping vaping or using a reusable vape—and the protection of children. Surely the protection of children is more important, as adults are free to make their own choices about what they wish to do, as long as it is an informed choice.
Christopher Chope Conservative, Christchurch
There is already vaping among children. As Mary Glindon said, children cannot buy vapes and should not be using them, but if children are going to choose between vaping and smoking, it is better that they should go for vaping rather than smoking. One of the unintended consequences that may flow from the regulations is that, instead of using vaping products, an increasing number of children will go back to smoking behind the bike sheds, or whatever the modern equivalent is.
Lee Dillon Liberal Democrat, Newbury
I should declare an interest as a vaper. I smoked until my wife was due to have our first son and used vapes to give up cigarettes. I have made my own vape juice—I knew exactly what was going into it—and have also used disposable vapes. I now use a reusable vape. A disposable vape is about £6.99 a unit—or two for a tenner; something like that—whereas my monthly bill with my reusable vape is about £35, so it is cheaper for me to use a reusable vape than disposables, and I can now get the same flavours in a reusable vape as I could in a disposable vape. I am not sure that I agree with the hon. Member on the correlation between removing disposable vapes and the prevalence of children smoking, because nowadays they could use a reusable vape and get the same flavours as in a disposable vape.
Christopher Chope Conservative, Christchurch
As I understand it, a reusable vape may cost as little as £10, so let us see what happens. However, the Government’s own impact assessment on page 40 expects that 26% of current smokers will revert to smoking or alternative non-vaping products. The figure for recent ex-smokers is that 3% will revert to smoking or alternative non-vaping products. Those two added together show that 29% of current vapers will not transition to reusable vapes. The figures say that 24% of current smokers will transition to reusable vapes. Slightly fewer will do so, therefore, than will revert to smoking or alternative non-vaping products. It is encouraging that 7% of recent ex-smokers will transition to reusable vapes, whereas only 3% will revert to smoking or alternative non-vaping products. That is significant, but I am concerned about the 29% of current vapers who will be driven back to smoking. Is that a good thing for them or for public health? I do not think that it is.
Mr Dillon referred to his background as a smoker and now a vaper. I have to admit to having never smoked or vaped, so I come to this debate with an enormous amount of wisdom and experience on the subject. I am driven by the fact that both my parents smoked very heavily as a result of their experiences in the war—when people were not fighting the Germans, there was not much else to do other than smoke. That was very bad for my parents’ health, as it was for so many people of that generation. I do not wish to encourage people to smoke, but the impact assessment makes no reference to the benefits that will accrue to the tobacco companies and the Exchequer from the increased number of people who will smoke as a direct result of the implementation of the regulations. That is a serious omission.
Earlier, some people said that there is a shortage of information available on this subject. I think that this debate is inhibited, as the one that we are to have on the Bill that will come forward in the next fortnight will be, by the Government’s extraordinary interpretation of the World Health Organisation framework convention on tobacco control, particularly article 5.3, which seeks to ensure that interactions between the tobacco industry and policymakers are conducted transparently. We are all in favour of that, but the article does not apply to interactions between the vaping industry and policymakers regarding vape regulation. I have been told, however, by Imperial Brands, I think British American Tobacco and others that they have been unable to access Government Ministers or officials because Ministers and officials are falsely interpreting the framework convention as prohibiting such engagement. It specifically does not inhibit or prevent such engagement.
I think that it is probably the fault of the Government that, as a consequence, they are not as well informed about the issues as they could and should be. Article 5.3 does not preclude policymakers, elected or unelected, from engaging with the tobacco industry or associated parties. Let us have open dialogue about this, instead of a situation where, as I understand it from talking to somebody from Imperial Brands, efforts by that company to engage with Government officials and Ministers are rejected on the grounds that such engagement would be inconsistent with the WHO framework convention. It would not be inconsistent with it. I hope that one positive thing to come out of the debate will be that the Government will rethink their total lack of engagement with the manufacturers of vaping products. We have some really good manufacturers of vaping products based in this country. Why are we trying to put them out of business and encouraging Chinese manufacturers to run rampant in our marketplace, as they are doing with increasing effect? My plea to the Government, which I hope the Minister will address, is to engage with tobacco manufacturers and companies such as Imperial Brands that are interested in promoting smoking alternatives and vaping.
All the projections are that the amount of vaping going on in this country will increase significantly. That is fine, but please can we try to ensure that we do not drive people back to smoking? That would be really bad for our public health and the national health service. I despair that no one from any of the three Front Benches has addressed the unintended consequences of these regulations on public health.
Mary Creagh The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs 4:45, 13 November 2024
Let me begin by saying how much I enjoyed listening to that interesting debate. I welcome Dr Hudson to his place in his new role in the shadow DEFRA team. I send our good wishes to Poppy the dog, after her close encounter with a vape of a disposable kind. I hope that this legislation avoids such encounters in future. I thank Liz Jarvis for her generous speech in support of this measure.
I also welcome my hon. Friend Lloyd Hatton to his place. There was a chuckle of recognition around the Chamber when we were taken on a ramble of his constituency, through the geological and the geographical. He mentioned the big-hearted people from his gorgeous part of the world. It was my privilege to open a section of the coastal path there in a previous role. I know that he will continue the work of Margaret Hodge in this place in his role on the Public Accounts Committee, and I am sure that his constituents are delighted to have one of their local sons representing them. I was really pleased to hear about his passion for bringing jobs and growth to his area.
Let me address some of the issues raised. I pay tribute to Dr Johnson. As a paediatrician, she is uniquely placed to warn of the dangers of these products. I have not come across a SpongeBob SquarePants vape yet, but who knows what the future holds. I was very distressed to hear of the incident at her local school, where eight children collapsed—I wish those young people and their families well—but it is a striking reminder of the dangers posed particularly by illegal products, as mentioned by Sir Christopher Chope.
Let me talk a little about recycling and producer responsibility for paying the costs. We know that there is no such place as “away”. These products cannot be put into local rivers; they will always turn up. They will always bleed into the environment, and everything that we do to the environment we eventually do to ourselves. It is important that those responsible for putting vapes on the market are accountable for their disposal. A consultation on reforming the producer responsibility system for waste electricals was held under the previous Government at the end of 2023. We are considering the responses, but we noted near unanimous support for the proposal to create a new category of electrical equipment specifically for vapes in the Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment Regulations 2013. That would ensure that producers of vapes are properly funding the collection and treatment of those products when they reach the end of their life. We recognise the importance of taking action to ensure that the costs of recycling these products are borne by those who make them, and we will outline our next steps on this in due course.
To answer the question raised by the hon. Member for Epping Forest on monitoring the ban and its impacts, including in devolved Governments, we will monitor the impacts of the ban, and we will share data and intelligence from Border Force, trading standards and all four nations to ensure effective implementation and that these regulations come in at the same time, so that we do not create an unfortunate internal market.
On disposal of existing stock, the six-month period is to help responsible and reputable businesses—when we regulate, we expect businesses to obey the law of the land, and assume that most people will do so. The period will help ensure that businesses do not have masses of stock to dispose of. Unsold stock will become waste electronics and should therefore be disposed of via routes that avoid the black bin.
Vapes present challenges to recycling, so we need to stem the flow by targeting those that are designed to be used only a small number of times. Reusable vapes are part of a wider shift to the circular economy. I have some sympathy with the hon. Member for Christchurch on the issue of reusable, refillable—and reusable and refillable. We are trying our best not to create loopholes for creative businesses to get around. We have seen more reusable products coming on to the market in anticipation of the ban. We will promote the ban to improve awareness both for the public and retailers. We encourage shops to stop purchasing single-use vapes and to run down their current stocks. We are seeing more vape bins in supermarkets, high street retailers and garages following the changes to take-back requirements that were brought in earlier this year. That will support people to dispose of vaping products responsibly, keeping them off the streets and out of the bins.
The regulations will be subject to regular reviews, which are set out in legislation. We will have a review of enforcement and civil sanctions within three years, and a post-implementation review at least every five years. We are currently collecting baseline data on the wholesalers and retailers of single-use vapes in England to support future assessments. The Department of Health and Social Care monitors current rates of smoking and vaping through various surveys, including the periodic “Smoking, Drinking and Drug Use among Young People” survey and the Action on Smoking and Health annual surveys. We will use both to monitor the impacts on people.
On imports, if vapes are discovered at ports then Border Force can retain the products and alert the local authority’s trading standards officers. If there is evidence that greater intervention is needed at the borders, we will not hesitate to act.
Christopher Chope Conservative, Christchurch
Does the Minister not share my concern? I understand that only one in 3,000 containers coming into a port like Southampton are inspected. It only needs one container to get through and there might be tens of millions of pounds-worth of vapes in one container.
Mary Creagh The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. A lot of public services have been run down over the past 14 years. In the Budget, there was an investment of £75 million in border security command to crack down on organised crime. Gangs often operate in multiple sectors of the economy. We need time for this new approach to intelligence gathering and sharing to bed in.
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